I already know that by any conventional standards, life generally, and my life in particular, is miserable.
Therefore, if I don't want to be miserable, I must abandon all conventional standards.
***
When you are young, the fleeting nature of existence is both terrifying and unimaginable. As such, it strikes like a spur to a frightened horse, to drive on, though you forget what it is that drove you. It is something like a vast sky, that can be looked at, but can't be taken in all at once.
When you are older, the fleeting nature of existence is merely apparent, and it is therefore easier to contemplate.
Between youth and age, I am fundamentally puzzled as to why people have children.
They are puzzled by my puzzlement.
***
In Withnail and I, one of the characters, Danny, describes what he calls politics: "If you're hanging on to a rising balloon, you're presented with a difficult decision: Let go before it's too late, or hang on and keep getting higher, posing the question, how long can you keep a grip on the rope?"
I have let go very quickly of all the ropes but one that have passed into my hands. I don't know how but I find that I have ended up hanging under a balloon whose rope I never knew I held. On it is painted the single word, "Alone."
Here, there are contrasts, between what you feel and what I feel. When I was younger, I mean in my teens, I was focused on trying to survive some very hard times. I did not have the experience of intellectual discourse and while it’s true that I did sit around in coffee bars in my free time the general topics that arose had very little to do with ” the fleeting nature of existence” & c. That type of intellectual pondering would arise later on, at moments when I leaned on the ship’s rail on ocean voyages out in the far east and stared up at the stars wheeling beyond the sky. But I was never terrified. I was awestruck. You say “When you are young, the fleeting nature of existence is both terrifying and unimaginable. As such, it strikes like a spur to a frightened horse, to drive on, though you forget what it is that drove you. It is something like a vast sky, that can be looked at, but can’t be taken in all at once.” What you felt, what you still feel, is markedly, different in terms of hope and fear, to what I felt when I was young, and what I now feel, having passed through some of the unavoidable ‘toll booths’ along the road of life. Yours seems to be a journey of depression and misery. You say “When you are older, the fleeting nature of existence is merely apparent, and it is therefore easier to contemplate”. I’m with you on that to a certain extent, because getting older, being older, one becomes ever more conscious of the passage of time. But it’s more than just “merely” apparent and although “the nature of existence” may be easier (for some) to contemplate when one is older it still holds unsolved unknowable mysteries, for me and I suspect for others too. I contemplate these things not in fear or terror or in a depressive or depressed or miserable manner. I contemplate them and I wonder and muse, but I cannot ignore the inevitable fact that the nature of existence is fleeting and there may come a time when I “rage, rage, against the dying light”, but that has not happened yet. For some reason I thought of Dylan Thomas as I was reading your post and perhaps there is no real connection with what you feel about your existence, but i’m posting a copy anyway. It may be misplaced here. On the other hand you may say it has relevance to some of the things you say. But as I said to you on another page, what do I know?Do not go gentle into that good night,Old age should burn and rave at close of day; Rage, rage against the dying of the light. Though wise men at their end know dark is right, Because their words had forked no lightning they Do not go gentle into that good night. Good men, the last wave by, crying how bright Their frail deeds might have danced in a green bay, Rage, rage against the dying of the light. Wild men who caught and sang the sun in flight, And learn, too late, they grieved it on its way, Do not go gentle into that good night. Grave men, near death, who see with blinding sight Blind eyes could blaze like meteors and be gay, Rage, rage against the dying of the light. And you, my father, there on the sad height, Curse, bless me now with your fierce tears, I pray. Do not go gentle into that good night. Rage, rage against the dying of the light. Dylan Thomas, 1951 or 1952
Wonderful film, even if it is desperately sad beneath the humor. The motorway scenes, gray and dotted with lamp posts conflate with the cover of “Bryter Layter” for me. Doomed late 60s characters alone on the concrete.I’m completely in agreement with John here:Originally posted by lokutus-prime: You say “When you are older, the fleeting nature of existence is merely apparent, and it is therefore easier to contemplate”. I’m with you on that to a certain extent, because getting older, being older, one becomes ever more conscious of the passage of time. But it’s more than just “merely” apparent and although “the nature of existence” may be easier (for some) to contemplate when one is older it still holds unsolved unknowable mysteries, for me and I suspect for others too. I contemplate these things not in fear or terror or in a depressive or depressed or miserable manner. I contemplate them and I wonder and muse…
Hello John.Not much time at the moment. I’m not depressed!!! I suppose it would be wrong to claim that my journey itself has not been depressive, but I’m not depressed these days (despite the song I posted), unless being generally in despair in the Kierkegaardian sense can be called depression.Anyway, no need to worry about me. Of course, all donations welcome, et cetera, but I’m fine.Thanks for the poem. It reminds me of this:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-Ab3tlpvYAHe hedges his bets a bit about whether there really is life after death, but he says something interesting that I’ve observed for myself very specifically. If one assumes that life will continue after death, it’s easier to motivate oneself in one’s ongoing activities, even if you know you’re doing this as a mental strategy. In other words, picture a continuing vista of life even beyond death and you can keep walking forward normally without fear of hitting a brick wall. What this means in my case is, if I think, “I’m going to die so I’ll probably never have time to write all I want”, then I stop writing. If I think instead, “There is no time limit”, then I can carry on writing, and it doesn’t matter to me then if I die in the middle of it.Originally posted by musickna:Wonderful film, even if it is desperately sad beneath the humor. The motorway scenes, gray and dotted with lamp posts conflate with the cover of “Bryter Layter” for me.You have great taste.
Death:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fO1W5T1dc5g&feature=relatedOr, to quote Epictetus:What is a child? Ignorance and inexperience. But with respect to what it knows, a child is every bit our equal. What is death? A scary mask. Take it off – see, it doesn’t bite. Eventually, body and soul will have to separate, just as they existed separately before we were born. So why be upset if it happens now? If it isn’t now, it’s later. And why now, if that happens to be the case? To accomodate the world’s cycle; because the world needs things to come into being now, things to come into being later – and it needs things whose time is now complete.Pain too is just a scary mask: look under it and you will see. The body sometimes suffers, but relief is never far behind. And if that isn’t good enough for you, the door stands open; otherwise put up with it. The door needs to stay open whatever the circumstances, with the result that our problems disappear. The fruit of these doctrines is the best and most beautiful, as it ought to be for individuals who are truly educated – freedom from trouble, freedom from fear, freedom in general.
Originally posted by quentinscrisp:The fruit of these doctrines is the best and most beautiful, as it ought to be for individuals who are truly educated – freedom from trouble, freedom from fear, freedom in general.i finally know what i am… i am an epictetian. :happy:
He’s worth checking out.
i’ve read epictetus. my favorite though is seneca. i am so divided. “sometimes i feel like a nut, sometimes i don’t”.it’s all in the attitude that can be maintained and verified as the most useful to my nature; whatever that is.
Good point :up:
I’m fond of Seneca but I must admit I have more than one ‘favourite’, so to say. Marcus Aurelius, for example. Staying on the subject of Stoicism, here’s a quote from author Bryan Macgee:”Stoic ethics have always been widely found to be impressive and admirable, even by people who do not wholly go along with them. They are not easy to practice – but perhaps it is bound to be a characteristic of any ethics worthy of the name that they are difficult to put into practice. They had an unmistakable influence on Christian ethics, which were beginning to spread when Seneca, Epictetus and Marcus Aurelius were writing. And, of course, to this very day the words “stoic” and “stoicism” are in familiar use in our language, with perhaps grudgingly admiring overtones, to mean “withstanding adversity without complaint”. There must be many people now living who – even if they have never consciously formulated this fact to themselves – subscribe to an ideal in ethics which is essentially the same as that of the Stoics”
very apropo. just because it’s hard makes it a tempting challenge. but as i was intimating, i may as well be two beings for the degree of congruence between contradictions i experience. the gourmet does not shake hands with the ascetic. :cool:i brag that i aced a year of philosophy with the head of the philosophy dept at columbia university with less than a page of reasoning. 😆 i wish i could find that thesis. it’s around here somewhere.but in essence i stated that though i had enjoyed reading the ideas of plato, augustine, dun scotus, aquinas et al and was thrilled by, for instance, the proofs for the existence of god, that in reading kant, descartes, kieerkegard et al, i had to admit that i agreed with them all while i was reading their systems of thought and concluded that if i hadn’t contradicted them in my mind at the time, i agreed with them. but that it was possible that there were many contradictions i could point out if i had more time. 😆 he gave me an a+ for the year.but to be honest, i also asked an enormous amount of questions in class. 🙂
Life, to be sure, is nothing much to lose;But young men think it is, and we were young.– A. E. Housman